Darrin: (36:34)
Minesh Bhindi, what is the BIGGEST RISK?
Minesh: (36:40)
The biggest risk is an external, uh, situation happening in your life that forces you out of an investment earlier than you wanted to be in it. You know, and that's really the, for most people when they're investing in the stock market, a margin call comes along and that wipes out, you know, 50% of their portfolio. We don't get involved with margin, we don't get involved with leverage. So for us, the biggest, the single biggest risk is a life situation happens. You don't have enough reserves and now you need to get out. And while you need to do that, the market is down 10% because it's, it's, it's going through a standard correction, uh, that it does every, every 18 months anyway. So that's really the biggest risk. The, if anyone wants to get involved with investing, there's two parts to it. The first part is actually making money.
Minesh: (37:26)
And the second part is investing money. What a lot of people get these two things completely mixed up. The other way around. When you're investing money, which is what we do, you want to invest with money that you're not going to miss for 10 years. If it just, if the market shuts down for 10 years, then you know, as Warren Buffett says, you're not going to miss that money. You've got to have enough cash reserves or a lot of people I find are doing is approaching, I don't have any money. I want to make money. Let me go use an investment strategy to do that. And that's not, that's not the right way of doing it. Go make the money first, have the reserves and then start investing. Otherwise, if a life event comes along, you're going to be forced out of a market and people like me are going to buy all your stock at 50% of the value.
Darrin: (00:00)
Today, my guest is Scott Bossman. He is a physical therapist, husband and a father of four. And after realizing his physical therapist career was not going to provide him the financial freedom he sought, he, uh, found land flipping, uh, with Mark Podolsky and the land geeks, uh, program. And, uh, in just three years he was able to create enough passive income to replace his physical therapy salary and, uh, quit his full time position. And, uh, today Scott is a member of the land geek team and he's passionate about sharing his journey into the world of Raul and flipping in hopes of inspiring others to, uh, step into their side hustle and achieve their financial freedom. And in just a minute, we're going to talk with Scott about how he achieved his financial freedom through land flipping. But first I want to remind everybody if you like the show CREPN Radio, uh, please let us know. We would love to hear from you. Uh, you can comment, you can like, you can share. And as always, we hope that you'll subscribe. Also, if you'd like to, uh, check out how handsome our guests are, be sure to check out our YouTube channel and you can find us on YouTube at Commercial Real Estate Pro Network. With that, I want to welcome my guest, Scott, welcome to CREPN Radio.
Scott: (01:22)
Thanks very much Darrin. Thank you for having me.
Darrin: (01:25)
Scott, I'm looking forward to talking with you today. Before we get started, if you could take just a minute and share with the listeners a little bit about your background.
Scott: (01:37)
Yeah, I'd be glad to. So, I was born in South Dakota. I spent most of my life here in the Northern Plains States. I went to a small liberal arts college in Iowa called Luther college and, and eventually went to physical therapy school. I knew healthcare was something I always wanted to do. I grew up in a family. My stepdad was a doctor, my mom was a nurse, I had other people in the healthcare field. And it just kind of encompassed a lot of our discussions at dinner time. And that type of thing. And I always had an interest in science and helping people and, and thought it was the best path. And for a long time it was the best pass, path for me. I was a physical therapist for almost 20 years before I discovered this niche in real estate investing.
(02:22)
But you know, really, I just come from a family of really hard workers. People who trade their time for dollars in all of these different careers. Doctors, lawyers, nurses, farmers, construction workers. My dad was a construction worker on my, all my grandparents were farmers. So it's very customary in my family to work hard and that's what I thought I needed to do. So that's what I did for a long time. I did that for 16, 17 years. And I, I don't know if it was a midlife crisis or what, but about the time I turned 40, I turned over in bed and just thought, man, I'm just, I'm just spinning my wheels. I feel like I'm not getting anywhere. I'm married. I have four boys. And with a physical therapist salary, you wouldn't think it would be hard to put food on the table, but that's about where we were.
Scott: (03:13)
So it was very stressful and, and my career, although I love patient care, as you can imagine, the healthcare environment can be quite toxic at times, especially in the last few years. So that just culminated in a lot of stress, for me. And you know, working 50 hour weeks, feeling like I wasn't getting anywhere. And, really looking at a stagnant salary, you know, freeze, pay freezes and that type of thing, uh, over years getting a 1% raise. And, uh, I'm just realizing I needed something else in my life. So, uh, I went on kind of a discovery, a journey of self discovery and tried to figure out what we wanted to do. After reading every Rich Dad Poor Dad book there was, and, uh, listening to a lot of other books about real estate and that type of thing. I found Mark Podolsky by accident on a podcast and I thought, this sounds amazing. I came home and told my wife, I think this is what we need to do.
Scott: (04:15)
And, uh, when, you know, kind of burned out, well, I didn't burn my bridges because a land investing, the great thing about it is the barrier for entry is quite low. You don't need a ton of money. You don't need a ton of time. So the risk of getting started was actually quite low. Uh, but we went into land investing and, uh, as you mentioned earlier, um, you know, just by taking massive action and doing what I needed to do, I replaced my income in two years. I was able to quit my job in three years, and it truly was a side hustle for me, you know, maybe 10 hours a week on top of what I was doing. I carved that time out and, and, and, uh, we made it happen.
Darrin: (04:55)
Awesome. No, I'm a fan of Mark's. He's been, or I've talked to him a couple of times, here on the podcast. And, uh, he's just a real energetic guy and, and, a Great story. Um, so let me ask you, so you mentioned that, uh, you kind of had this aha, what are you going to call it? A midlife crisis or not, but just, you know, the W2 there were limitations. You were basically limited by based on what others were willing to pay you, uh, essentially for your, for your time. When you, when you had this aha, was it a, I'm not going to be able to get where I want to go or what, what was, was there an underlying the mother and just the, you know, the struggle, like you mentioned, even just to put food on the table. I mean, just the, you know, the constraints.
Scott: (05:47)
There were a number of things for me. There, there was the immediate feeling of, uh, just I mean, not necessarily into debt that's struggling to make all ends meet and paying bills and getting food on the table. There was the, the retirement horizon, right? Turning 40, knowing that in 15 to 20 years, I need to have a good cushion for retirement. So, so there were definitely the financial aspects of things were a big stressor at the time. The other thing though was the, just the, the lack of time freedom and the, and the fact that I really was trading my time for dollars. My boys were growing quickly. My wife didn't see me much and you know, uh, it was, I had no sense of time freedom. So that was another motivator for getting into something like this, so that I would be able to have a little bit more control over my time, a little bit more control over my financial destiny and be able to, to spend time, uh, you know, with my loved ones, maybe teach them what I'm doing, which is what I've done as well with my kids, which has been very valuable, and, experience, experience, freedom on both those fronts.
Darrin: (07:05)
Awesome. So as you got into your search for something, something different, what was it that you saw with the land flipping that appealed?
Scott: (07:18)
Yeah, we were, we were actually on the verge of going into multifamily housing. We were on the verge of purchasing a duplex when I, when I heard Mark's, podcast. And I thought, uh, you know, number one, I in patient care, I read people really well. I could just tell that Mark was really genuine. And, it was, it was just a great podcast to listen to and I thought, wow, this sounds so much easier than what we are about to do. You can, you know, a land flipping business can start cash flowing very quickly. You don't need $30,000 to start. You know, you can literally start this with a couple thousand dollars.
Scott: (07:56)
You can start this with no money. It sounded like something I could do. Uh, I, I, you know, I'm a good learner, a good researcher, a good planner, and it just sounded like something, that was, that was more up my alley than having, than, than going into multifamily housing where there can be a lot of emergencies. Right. I have friends in multifamily housing. They're getting up at three in the morning and they're going to court to evict people. Um, you know, there are no land emergencies. Uh, and, and that was not really apparent when I got into it, but it's been apparent now for the last couple of years, you know, out of all the hundreds of deals I've done, I've had like two minor issues that cost me a couple hundred bucks. And compare that to, to my other real estate investor friends. Uh, it's, it's very low stress in that regard.
Scott: (08:46)
Uh, so, uh, that's what I loved about it. Um, and I, and I loved Mark's mindset. Uh, you know, I get this question all the time because I talked a lot of people about this business. Why would Mark want to teach everybody to do this and introduce competition into the environment? Well, Mark's very much about the abundance mindset. And the, the, the raw land market in, these United States is so absolutely massive. It's really hard to wrap your head around. Um, and, uh, therefore, you know, Mark has no limitation in teaching people to do this. Because not many people are doing it, number one. And number two, even if we teach a lot of people to do this there is going to be a lot of lotta land leftover for sure. There's gonna be a lot of land for everybody.
Scott: (09:30)
So I love that mindset of his and, and entering his community and being a part of his community now for the last four years. I mean, Mark and his training, you know, Mark has retired so many people. And people and now to be able to, in my role with Land Geek, I kind of facilitate that happening. So if you were to come to me and say, I want to do this, I tell you how to do it. And I helped facilitate that and that's really rewarding as well. I get them on the path, that I've already experienced.
Darrin: (10:05)
Yeah. The, I'm just thinking with Mark, I remember, uh, his system to me was a Uber impressive just based on how he had truly systematized it. Are you, did you create your own niche that you're going after then? And basically are you able to leverage is kind of a system approach or do you have, can you kind of walk us through kind of a month of what you're doing?
Scott: (10:32)
Sure, the, the great thing about land investing is it's, uh, it's, it's very, very repeatable, very redundant. Once you, once you learn how to do a deal, you can just rinse and repeat and do it all over again. So, but the most important aspect of our businesses and mailing. We target all of our, or we get all of our properties by mailings. We mail property owners who are, they may or may not be distressed. They may have back taxes. They may just live away from the property. They may have owned the property for 30 years, and they don't know how to get rid of it. So we show up in their mailbox as a solution for how to get rid of the property. Uh, and, uh, essentially there's just a negotiation process on the front end. We do our due diligence.
Scott: (11:14)
We, we agree on a price. We purchased the land and then, start marketing it right away. A lot of our properties I can, we can sell in 30 days or less. You know, a lot of people think raw land, you know, that or they assume that I'm, that I'm flipping raw land that, that, you know, we're buying very expensive land parcels and flipping them for much more expensive. But the truth of the matter is my bread and butter deal, is like $1,500. I love that purchase point. I'll buy a property for $1,500 and then, I'll sell it for $4,500 cash or maybe $6,000 to $7,000 on terms. They sell very quickly. So the power in this business is velocity. So you can do a number of deals like that and really move the needle quickly. There's a gentleman in our community who is over $60,000 a month passive income. You know, that's his average purchase price on property is $1,700.
Scott: (12:17)
It's absolutely phenomenal. But the biggest thing in this business is, is for me a month, uh, in land investing is just, is just being consistent with my mailing on the front end because that brings in the deal flow and the deal flow solves everything. And then also being consistent with my marketing. So we have systems in place for both our mailing and our marketing. The great thing about this business is so much of, so much of it can be automated. So much of it can be delegated, to get to the point where you really have a passive income machine and that's Land Geeks mantra. We want to teach you something that brings in passive income and we want to show you how to create a machine so you aren't having to work so hard. So you're not working in the business. And that's kind of what we do.
Darrin: (13:05)
Wow, that's awesome. I appreciate you kind of walking us through that. I'm curious on, on the, the mailing, I think, you touched on the two things that I would think are key. You know, the mailings going to be the getting out in front of people and presenting your opportunity,. And the constant marketing that's going to be your, your pipe, right? I mean, if you keep that, keep that machine going, you're going to have opportunities to come in. Do you have any kind of a sense of the numbers of pieces that go out as to opportunities to come in and, the close? I mean, is it that kind of simple math? I mean, it's like if you send up, I don't know what the number is, thousand or whatever.
Scott: (13:48)
Yeah. Yeah, that's a great question. We do have this kind of down to a science. It does depend a little bit on the area that you work in, but what we find is that, in these vast counties out West, the equation is pretty much the same. You know, you're in the right market. If you send out a hundred mailings and you get maybe a 3% response rate. Now those could be angry, angry, sellers as well. But you're able to purchase one property for every 100 mailings. That's, that's what we're shooting for. There are a couple of, uh, there's a gentleman in our community that's very successful. He has a 1.7% response rate, or I'm sorry, 1%, 1.7% buy rate. Uh, I would say my buy rates about 1%. So we're, we're looking at purchasing one property out of every hundred and, uh, you know, it, that's the great thing.
Scott: (14:41)
You can start with, uh, you know, w w what we teach people is to start with a a hundred a week. Start with a hundred a week. You don't need thousands and thousands of dollars to send out thousands and thousands of mailings. And that, that's actually what we recommend you don't do it that way because you want to make sure that you're very careful with your County research. Your County research has to be surgical in this business. You have to figure out where there's a good market for buying and selling land. And, you know, we teach you how to do that. You can find a lot of information online how to do that. So the biggest thing is County research and then the, the next most important thing is just to be consistent with those mailings. Consistently sending out a hundred a week. And if you can be diligent and disciplined enough to do that, and you get your numbers on with your pricing and you're in the right County, man, you can, you can make hay in this business for sure.
Darrin: (15:35)
So when you first started, four years ago, what, how long did it take you to land your first for deal?
Scott: (15:46)
Yeah, that's a great question. Uh, let's see, I got, Mark's, his basic training kit is called the investor toolkit. I got that. I digested that very quickly. I think I snapped my first mailings within a few weeks of getting that. Uh, so bottom line is I purchased my first property about six weeks after I got Mark's, basic training program. And this may sound funny to a lot of real estate investors out there, but for me, this is a big deal. I purchased a two and a half acre property for $700, and two weeks later I sold it for $2,800 cash. So that for me, right there was just huge proof of concept. I just tripled my money on a land deal. And I'm a physical therapist. Like I don't have an ounce of business or, or real estate or you know, anything in my body, sales or marketing, I'm not an economist, nothing. And I took this, I took $700 and I turned it into $2,800. That's what I knew. I was onto something. And, shortly after that, uh, I went into one on one coaching with the Land Geek program, which is a year long intensive process to, to get you to the point where you have a machine up and running. And in that first year we bought and sold 30 properties. In the second year we about doubled that and our business has continued to grow since.
Darrin: (17:12)
Oh, that's awesome. So in, so year three or tell me when were you able to replace your income and then I think, did you kind of continue on the PT path for awhile before you, tell us about that.
Scott: (17:30)
Yeah, at about my two year anniversary in land investing, I had exceeded my income with passive, uh, with passive income. I had exceeded my income as a physical therapist. I knew I needed to work a little bit longer, uh, to before I was comfortable in hanging up the, the cleats in that department. But, but so about another year and three months, I was a PT and then it got, we have a very successful third year, in our business. And, and then it just got to the point where I, again, I kind of woke up one day and I realized, you know, I'm spending 80% of my time in something that is yielding 20% of the results and I need to flip that. So I remember having a discussion with Mark and saying, you know, wow, Mark, I'm really nervous about this.
Scott: (18:18)
And, and he's, he said, Scott, you know, how many times have you burned your ships in this sea? You need to burn them again. So we, so I burned them again and quit my job and it's been absolutely amazing. Now I work my land business from home. My wife helps a little bit. I can put my sweat pants on in the morning and bring my boys to school, come back home, drink my coffee, work in land for a few hours. And then, uh, you know, this last summer it was really apparent to me. It was my first summer off and probably 20 or 25 years, something like that. To be able to go golfing with my son on a Monday morning and fishing with my other son on a Thursday morning. That for me is, is what really hit home, how, how amazing this business is for me and so many others.
Scott: (19:05)
For me it's, it's more about the time than it is the money for sure. Uh, and so that's what I've experienced as a result. And, uh, now I, I still am a PT. I'm going into the clinic today for four hours, but I work, um, I worked four to 10 hours a week as a physical therapist. I enjoy doing that. I still enjoy helping people. I still enjoy it. I'm a clinical educator, so I like to go in and, you know, if there happens to be a student in the building I'll pull them aside and say, let's go over some things. And some, I'm getting the best of all worlds right now. It's been a, it's, it's a great life right now.
Darrin: (19:41)
That's awesome. Let me ask you, so, you know, you, um, you made the, I mean, kind of graduated into it, uh, until you realize that, you know, I, gosh, I really don't need to do this, uh, one full time recognizing your time there. What, what do you think the challenge is for most people? Um, is it that they, they don't realize that there's no silver lining to what they're doing? Or that they're not paying attention or is there just fear of the unknown? Have you any ideas on that as far as, cause I mean, you, you realize that what you were doing wasn't going to get you where you wanted to go.
(20:21)
And I think that, um, you know, so much of the way I think, uh, education and like you mentioned your family hard work. You know, work hard and, and you'll retire. And the path. I wonder if you could speak a little bit more to, what you see. Or even kind of your was there any challenge to that? I guess where I'm trying to like get.
Scott: (20:44)
Sure. Um, I don't like being uncomfortable or I didn't, uh, four years ago. You know, and that I would say I talked to a lot of people who are interested in getting into this business. And I would say that in my conversations with people, uh, there are a number of people who are, who are fearful of, of the unknown, of doing something that they've never done before. Um, and there is some discomfort associated with any new venture. Right. Um, and, and I think what I've come to find out is that that discomfort is essential in order for you to move the needle, uh, and become better in whatever realm of life that you're in. That's right. That you want to be better in. Um, some people, they just, uh, they, they can't tolerate that discomfort. So I think that that's the, that's the biggest thing is, you know, you need to realize that that discomfort is a good thing.
Scott: (21:38)
Um, when you're, when you're moving the needle on your life, if you feel some discomfort that's going to motivate you to do better. So, you know, I've felt that so many times in this business, I felt that when I first, ordered Mark's investor toolkit. I felt that on my first mailing. I felt that one, you know, I bought my first property. I felt that when I went into coaching. So looking back over the last four years there have been all these, peaks and valleys of, feeling comfortable and then feeling discomfort. Uh, but, but to me that what, what really, uh, is apparent is the upward trend. You know, and this is, this is like with patient care and physical therapy too. People get better and they get a little worse and they get better and let it be, get a little bit worse.
Scott: (22:21)
What, what, what matters is, are you better now than you were a month ago? And that's kind of the mantra I use with my land investing business. I try to sit down every month and say, you know, am I better now than I was a month ago? And if the numbers say yes and my my time says yes and that type of thing, we're on the right track. If the numbers don't say yes, then I need to adjust. Um, but I'd say that's the biggest thing I notice is that it's just the fear of unknown. Especially for people who maybe aren't, business oriented or, or, or in marketing or sales or that type of thing. To take to, to step into a completely different realm. Uh, I think is the biggest fear, uh, that people have getting into this. But the, but the valuable thing is, uh, we have this down to a science. It really is a recipe and if you follow the recipe and that's where you get strengths or that, that's where you, uh, kind of calm your fears. It's just by following the recipe, um, you follow this recipe and you will be doing land deals.
Darrin: (23:22)
That's awesome. I'm trying to think here. So the, the uh, you got in, you, you worked it. Now you've got your time back, you're coaching; what would you say, I mean you mentioned kind of the uncomfortable. Is there a a push point? Is there like a nudge other than just the uncomfortable? Is it basically look, I guess what I'm trying to ask is like, um, cause I, I feel like there's just like this, this wake up of just that when you look at, you know, the one thing was kind of the, the uncomfortable on how, you know, you transition and I'm trying to think what do you say to people that when they're looking at their, their future and where they're going to end up. I mean, cause I just look at the limitations of a W2 and how little that really, that there is. You know, and, and recognizing that. Do, do people, when they come to you, are they, are they aware of that? Is that a something that they're, they're concerned about?
Scott: (24:26)
Yeah. I think a majority of people that come to us, they, they realize just like I realized four years ago, know that they're not on the best path. And you know, this path has been ingrained, in all of us, in this country that you, you know, you need to, you need to work hard and train your, to trade your time for money and, and you can retire when you're 65 and, and, you know, maybe 75 now. I mean, uh, people, people work into their eighties and nineties. My grandma, God bless her, uh, she, she just, uh, retired from Walmart full-time a couple of years ago. She was 80, 88. She's working full time. These, these are now, she wasn't stressed for money, but she was just, you know, she comes from a society where people work their entire lives. Um, but I, I'd say a majority of people I talk to, they're there. They're working their entire lives and they're not feeling like they're getting ahead. Uh, so, um, the, the great thing about land geek is we, we provide you a solution to get to the point where you're not trading your time, uh, nearly as much for, for, for money. And that you get to the point where you are more financially secure. So you can enjoy life and, and, and you don't have to, you don't have to work, work that hard.
Darrin: (25:48)
No, I love it. I, and I, I'm, I'm, I'm appreciate you, uh, kinda talking a little bit about that. Because I think that, um, you mentioned, you know, kind of that, uh, the clock, whether it be your 40 or 50 or whatever the age is, is that when you look at, uh, the plan that's been provided for you and you, you run the numbers and, you know, is this going to add up? I mean, I think that's really a, a question. And I, I see it when I talk to people, doesn't matter what income bracket they're in.
Darrin: (26:18)
You know, they could be a, a, you know, six figure plus or, or, or more. Um, but I think a lot of times when people aren't doing and spending, you know, they spend what they get kind of thing and, and uh, aren't fully cognizant of, you know, how are the numbers going to add up kind of thing. So, um, appreciate you talking about that.
Darrin: (26:39)
Scott, if we could, I want to shift gears here for a second. I mentioned to you earlier, by day I'm an insurance broker. And we work with our clients, uh, to assess risk and, and uh, determine what to do with risk and a risk management. And, uh, there's three strategies that we typically consider. The first is can we avoid the risk? A second option is can we minimize the risk? And in the third option is can we transfer the risk? And that's, that's what an insurance policy is. You're basically transferring the risk. And, um, what I've been asking my, uh, a guest here on CREPN Radio, if they can take a look at, uh, what their model is. What their, how they operate and what they see, uh, is, is the, you know, the Biggest Risk. So if you're, you're willing, what I'd like to do is ask you Scott Bossman, what is the BIGGEST Risk?
Scott: (27:42)
I'll give you a multi-part answer if that's okay. It'll be short. Uh, so I, I think of this in a couple of ways. The biggest risk in my land investing business is a, not mailing and not marketing. So if I can be consistent in those two things, I will be successful in this business. And that's something that we, we iterate to our students over and over and over again. Do not stop mailing thats your deal flow. Do not stop marketing. Those are your sales. So the consistency in those things and not being consistent is the BIGGEST Risk. As far as a technical standpoint from land investing, land investing is, is actually very low risk. Uh, which is one of the reasons people love it so much. There are no land emergencies like I said earlier. Uh, so you know, um, uh, that that can be covered with like an umbrella policy in your business in case you do happen to have somebody that you bought a property or and sold the property to and they want to go out to your land to camp on under that type of thing.
Scott: (28:44)
You know, Mark, Mark, recommends having some type of umbrella policy for your land investing business for, for your properties. Otherwise the land investing business is pretty low risk, which is, which is very nice, you know, as far as very, you know, very low entry as well for us with cash and time. Uh, but the biggest, the big risks that I think about is, and this is something I never used to think about, uh, I think in this day and age you really need to diversify. Uh, you need to have multiple streams of income from coming from different places. And that's something I did not realize, uh, up until four years ago or probably five, six years ago, that I needed something like that. That a physical therapist, salary alone was not going to help me get to where I needed to get, uh, as you were mentioning, you know, that that time, 10, 20 years from now, that 10 years is coming, no matter what you do.
Scott: (29:37)
And if I have only my physical therapist salary to rely on, the risk in that is high. Uh, so, so if I can have multiple streams of income, so, you know, now I have physical therapist didn't come, which is small compared to what it was, my land investing income. I'm doing a couple other things now, which is exciting. Uh, and I'm using my retirement money to invest in land. And so I'm really diversifying. I've really come a long ways in the last five years, uh, in doing that. So I think that that's the BIGGEST Risk is not diversifying and not having kind of multiple streams of income.
Darrin: (30:14)
I love it. I, I, uh, uh, I think you're right on. I mean, they, uh, you know, kind of the Kiyosaki, uh, you know, a mentality there of multiple streams of income. Uh, definitely a good, good idea. I appreciate you taking that on for us. Yeah. Scott, uh, before we, wrap up, where can listeners go if they would like to connect or learn more,
Scott: (30:44)
I would recommend you go to TheLandGeek.com and spend some time on the website. Mark Podolski and the the community. We have a number of podcasts as well. The best passive income model podcast. I'm sorry, The Art of Passive Income Model Podcast. And then, uh, if you're curious and want to talk more to me, you can email me@scottatthelandgeek.com or you can even schedule a call with me at TheLandGeek.com/training.
Darrin: (31:18)
Got it. Well, Scott, I want to say thanks for taking the time to talk today. I've enjoyed it and learned a lot and I hope we can do it again soon.
Scott: (31:30)
Thanks Darrin, I appreciate it very much.
Darrin: (31:32)
All right. For our listeners, if you like this episode, don't forget to like, share and subscribe. Remember, the more you know, the more you grow. That's all we've got this week. Until next time, thanks for listening to Commercial Real Estate Pro Network's C.R.E.P.N. Radio.
Darrin: (00:08)
Scott Bossman, what is the BIGGEST RISK?
Scott: (00:14)
I'll give you a multi-part answer if that's okay. It'll be short. Uh, so I, I think of this in a couple of ways. The biggest risk in my land investing business is a, not mailing and not marketing. So if I can be consistent in those two things, I will be successful in this business. And that's something that we, we iterate to our students over and over and over again. Do not stop mailing thats your deal flow. Do not stop marketing. Those are your sales. So the consistency in those things and not being consistent is the biggest risk. As far as a technical standpoint from land investing, land investing is, is actually very low risk. Uh, which is one of the reasons people love it so much. There are no land emergencies like I said earlier. Uh, so you know, um, uh, that that can be covered with like an umbrella policy in your business in case you do happen to have somebody that you bought a property or and sold the property to and they want to go out to your land to camp on under that type of thing.
Scott: (01:16)
You know, Mark, Mark, recommends having some type of umbrella policy for your land investing business for, for your properties. Otherwise the land investing business is pretty low risk, which is, which is very nice, you know, as far as very, you know, very low entry as well for us with cash and time. Uh, but the biggest, the big risks that I think about is, and this is something I never used to think about, uh, I think in this day and age you really need to diversify. Uh, you need to have multiple streams of income from coming from different places. And that's something I did not realize, uh, up until four years ago or probably five, six years ago, that I needed something like that. That a physical therapist, salary alone was not going to help me get to where I needed to get, uh, as you were mentioning, you know, that that time, 10, 20 years from now, that 10 years is coming, no matter what you do.
Scott: (02:09)
And if I have only my physical therapist salary to rely on, the risk in that is high. Uh, so, so if I can have multiple streams of income, so, you know, now I have physical therapist didn't come, which is small compared to what it was, my land investing income. I'm doing a couple other things now, which is exciting. Uh, and I'm using my retirement money to invest in land. And so I'm really diversifying. I've really come a long ways in the last five years, uh, in doing that. So I think that that's the biggest risk is not diversifying and not having kind of multiple streams of income.
What is the Real State of Retail Real Estate?
Chris Ressa cut his teeth in commercial real estate as a real estate representative for Sherwin Williams Paint Company. Historically, Sherwin Williams dominates the contractor market. The growth opportunity with higher margins is in the DIY market.
As a real estate representative, Chris was charged with finding new locations for stores in markets that Sherwin Williams wanted to expand market share. He worked with local brokers, negotiated leases, and gained critical insight how national tenants view retail space.
Here he was exposed to the thinking and strategy that national retailers invest in Identifying markets, time lines, and the value placed on space and lease negotiations.
When he moved to the real estate brokerage side of the business, he found that his experience was helpful, but, real estate is still real estate. You have to execute.
What is the real state of retail real estate? For context, it has to be stated that the consumers demand drives retail real estate. Second, the consumer’s behavior has led to the creation of multiple significant asset classes.
The different types of Retail Real Estate include:
For this reason, you have to get granular to understand the nuances of each when underwriting a property, because they all operate differently. You have to consider what type of retail will create the best opportunity for a tenant.
Disruption in retail is nothing new. But, not that long ago, the tenant list of an enclosed mall was about 70% leased to fashion and apparel. Then the outlet center created a direct to consumer opportunity for brands.
Next was the category killers, the power centers that provided all of the brands and categories under one roof; think Dick’s Sporting Goods and Office Depot/ Office Max.
Then the multi tenant buildings with the front and center impulse buy, ie Starbucks.
Lifestyle centers include high end fashion, plus mixed use, are walkable and may include dog parks.
Now, online sales are changing how the retail consumer buys. It’s easy to point to Amazon and the volume of sales generated, but there are no known cases where a retailer went out of business because of an online competitor.
Online sales has made most retailers better. Now the consumer can order online, and pickup at the store.
It’s often reported that Toys R Us, a fortune 300 company, went out of business due to online. Their annual revenue was $11 Billion. The truth is they were over leveraged and they could not service their debt.
Retailers are finding that when they open a physical location in a market, that their online sales increase and the reverse holds true when a location closes. Good retailers are figuring out how to add to their bottom line and make the consumer experience frictionless.
A recent study shows that approximately 85% of consumers who order online and pickup in the store will make an additional purchase at pickup.
Right now, in order to get consumers in the habit of ordering online, retailers are providing free shipping and returns. Will free shipping continue to be offered as retailers build more brick and mortar locations for consumers to return the unwanted purchase?
The cost to start an online business is nothing compared to a brick and mortar business. But, to grow beyond $10Million in sales, retailers are finding that a physical presence is needed. At this level, the customer acquisition cost is actually less for brick & mortar versus online.
Multiple online brands are opening multiple physical locations to lower their cost. Product distribution necessitates it. Warehousing, retail and online are all working together.
Other brands are working to limit the number of outlets for consumers to buy in order to keep the value of the brand high, ie Nike.
Brick and mortar has a convenience edge for the consumer who needs something right now. Combine this with evolving experience and physical locations for retail real estate is not going anywhere. For the customer who needs service, a chat bot is no comparison to a live meeting with a person in a physical location.
The store prototype is changing. Brands are trying to determine the ideal square footage, product mix and layout to meet the consumer needs.
Each week I ask my guest, “What is the Biggest Risk Real Estate Investors face?”
BIGGEST RISK:
So I think both from a real estate end and a retail end. The BIGGEST RISK is human capital.
When you have an industry. That's been hammered by Headline News, both the retail and the real estate. When someone is really bright, and smart graduates college, is that the industry they want to get into? And to solve the problems and the challenges that we were just talking about, you need really sharp, talented people. From an industry perspective, I always want those at DLC, but from an industry perspective, retailers, real estate, everybody needs really smart, sharp, talented people.
Getting the bright, sharp people into retail store management training programs. I don't know the last time you talked to a millennial, but when was the last time they said, when I graduate college, and I want to be the store manager of Wal-Mart. I don't hear a lot of people doing that. And I think it's a great job. And there's a great career path.
But the biggest risk is human capital, both on the retail side and the real estate side. In the Great Recession and the real estate side is not limited to my world, but in the Great Recession, you know, in all commercial real estate, very few people were hiring in 2008 to 2012. So you have this labor shortage.
And I think the greatest risk is in commercial real estate and retail. If all the most talented people in the world move over to the tech world and no one comes into real estate, I think that's the greatest risk the industry has.
For more go to:
Website: https://www.dlcmgmt.com/
Podcast: Retail Retold
Darrin: Chris, Ressa, what is the BIGGEST RISK?
Chris: So I think both from a real estate end and a retail end. The BIGGEST RISK is human capital.
And you know, when you have an industry. That's been hammered by Headline News, both the retail and the real estate. When someone really bright and smart graduates college, is that the industry they want to get into? And to solve the problems and the challenges that we were just talking about, you need really sharp, talented people. From an industry perspective, you know, I always want those at DLC, but from an industry perspective, retailers, real estate, everybody needs really smart, sharp, talented people.
Getting retail, you know, getting the bright, sharp people into retail store management training programs, you know, I don't know, one last time talked to a millennial, but the last time they said, when I graduate college, you know, I want to work at you know, I want to be the store manager of Wal-Mart that, you know, I don't hear a lot of people doing that. And I think it's a great job. And there's a great career path.
But the biggest risk is human capital, both on the retail side and the real estate side. You know, in the Great Recession and the real estate side is not limited to my world, but in the Great Recession, you know, in all commercial real estate, very few people were hiring in 2008 to 2012. So you have this labor shortage. And I think the greatest risk is if call it commercial real estate and retail. If all the all the most talented people in the world move over to the tech world and no one comes into real estate, I think that's the greatest risk the industry has.
Hidden investing? What do the top 1% know that you do not?
Holly Williams is a successful advertising professional who worked hard, and climbed the corporate ladder. All during the climb, she did what she was taught to do; get a JOB, work hard, live below her means and save for her retirement.
As her parents aged, she experienced first hand the sad ending waiting for most Americans who follow the investment plan her parents taught her. What she learned while watching her parents age, was that the plan is designed so that you die broke. Nobody ever talked about how the plan includes that you die broke. Why is that?
No one ever talks about how you get your money out of the 401k. Most people know that when you sell, you have to pay taxes. But, nobody talks about what happens when your account goes down and you still need to sell your shares to get the cash you need to live. How it is extremely unlikely you will ever make that money back. And as you get older, the government forces you to take the money out so that they can collect their tax.
Her parents aging combined with her increasing tax bill made her hyper aware of the government’s goal for the masses; die broke. Her plan was broken.
Then she met fellow Texas Tech alumni & NYC advertising executive, Joe Fairless, who shared with her an opportunity to invest in commercial real estate. She liked Joe, and wanted to help him, but did not expect anything to come of it. Wow, was she wrong!
In the months that followed, she received income. At the end of the year, she received a K-1 with depreciation which reduced her taxes. She learned first hand how the tax code favored real estate. Then she found out what an accredited investor was, and that she was one. She also learned about the private investment management advice resources available to the top 1% of Americans and family offices that are not available to the masses.
Eyes wide open! Holly was making good money. She thought she had an idea of how much the wealthy Americans made for an annual income. Maybe a couple of million dollars per year and they probably paid 50% in taxes.
Then she learned the truth about how much the Wall Street fund managers make; $20million and more!. The advisors who were advising her made no more money than she did, and only knew to tell her to stay invested in the market. Investing in real estate is risky!
Since she was an accredited investor, if she had a prior relationship, she was qualified to invest in sophisticated alternative investments like real estate syndications. This is typical of the level of investment the 1% invest in. They get close to the source of the opportunity compared to the diluted returns available to the masses.
Real Estate investing is specifically encouraged by the tax code. For accredited investors, when you invest directly, bypass all the middlemen, you are able to lower your taxable income due to depreciation, and you have the ability to shield your gains from tax. This is unlike investing in a REIT where you are a shareholder in a fund that most likely made a loan and receives interest payments. When you invest as a limited partner in a syndication, you are an owner and entitled to owner benefits.
In addition to the tax benefits, you can benefit from a value add strategy. This can be accomplished through improved management or actually improving the property. The key is to find an experienced investor who can assess the situation and identify the opportunity others cannot see.
Most Americans are focused on creating more income. A bigger paycheck equals more taxes and a bigger lifestyle for most. Earn more so they can spend more.
Real estate provides the opportunity to invest and create wealth. You purchase a cash flowing asset with leverage. It grows in value, and allows you to shield both your income and gains from taxes.
Even though the IRS tax code favors real estate, most Americans are unable to break from the heard. They welcome the opportunity to invest in a stock or start up, but real estate still seems risky. Buying from a name brand mutual fund seems less risky than investing directly with an experienced key principal who knows how to improve the property, create cash flow and reduce their taxable income.
Holly has learned a great deal about Hidden Investing and how the 1% is able to invest in more secure opportunities. To share her new found knowledge with others, she has created a learning and investment platform, KeepMore.com where her motto is: Get more, Earn more and Keep more.
Each week I ask my guest, “What is the Biggest Risk Real Estate Investors face?”
BIGGEST RISK: Oh, I know that's an easy answer. Because I had some real estate, but the majority of my net worth was in the stock market. The stock market is all about hope. It really is. If Trump tweets, it goes up. Tweets again, it goes down. You know, we can have a company with the best earnings ever and their stock goes down.
It makes no sense. Unless you're really good at picking these stocks. I just think that that that hope is not a strategy.
With every investment that I make, I can tell you exactly what we're doing to mitigate that risk. How fast the area is growing. What's around the investment. I can tell you all of that.
So I just feel more comfortable. Because I absolutely don't know in the stock market. And the people we give our money to don’t either. No idea. Not a clue. They just say, “stay in and don't panic”. Right?
For more go to:
Website: www.Keepmore.com
Book: www.hiddeninvesting.com
Oh, I know that's an easy answer, though, because almost I had some real estate, but the majority of my net worth was in the stock market. And I know and you're it's it's all about hope. It really is. I need Trump tweets. It goes up. Tweets again. It goes down. You know, we can have a company can have the best earnings ever and their stock goes down.
It makes no sense. And a lot unless you're really good at picking these stocks or whatever, which anyway.
You know, I just think that that that hope is not a strategy. And with every investment that I make, I can tell you exactly what we're doing to mitigate that risk. Exactly what happened in 2008 or whatever in the last recession. Exactly. Who's how fast the area is growing how fast. that's what's around there. What? I can tell you all of that. So I just feel more comfortable. Because I absolutely don't know.
And the people we give our money to either. This guy's get to come see me. I guarantee he doesn't know. No idea. Not a clue. Just stay in and don't panic. Right?
PACE (Property Assessed Clean Energy) Financing is a finance tool every real estate investor needs to know about to help acquire or renovate your property.
Scott Krone, principal at CODA Management Group, a real estate design & design firm. CODA as designed & built single family, multifamily, commercial property convert to mixed use, and churches. Most recently, CODA has focused on re-adaptive use, converting empty warehouses into self storage facilities.
Property Assessed Clean Energy (PACE) is accessed through the US Department of Energy, but not widely available throughout the country. To access PACE Financing, the state where the property for which the funds will be utilized must be located in a state that has adopted the PACE program.
The purpose of PACE is to encourage and improve the energy performance of a structure or building. The money provides financing of these improvements through real estate taxes instead of traditional debt. This structure changes the picture of debt for lending, as lenders look at the obligation as equity versus a liened debt position against the property. Your payments are now operational, property taxes. Banks love it!
There are two forms of PACE financing; public and private. Public is run through the Port Authority. Private
The structure of Pace financing is similar to traditional debt financing in that the principal & interest which is spread out over the life of the improvement. For instance if the HVAC system has a life expectancy of 20 years, they will amortize the payments over 19 years.
Like any construction project with financing, the monthly draws are submitted to the bank after the work has been completed. For those elements that are recognized as energy related and included under the PACE financing, a separate draw is requested.
Your PACE payments are an additional tax assessment usually split into two annual payments.
The tax structure for PACE provides multiple benefits.
The list of qualifying building components look to three areas for improvement; water, energy and renewal energy. Structural components are generally excluded, however a new roof with additional energy saving insulation is included. An easy way to think of what is qualified, is to think of LEED certified buildings and the components.
In a typical property purchase with debt, the borrower brings the down payment, equity and borrows the balance from a lender. For PACE qualified projects, your down payment can be lowered because the PACE financing is recognized as equity in the project. For instance:
Project Total $1,000,000
Down Payment: $ 150,000
PACE Financing: $ 150,000
Debt Financing: $ 700,000
Typically PACE can provide up to 20% of the appraised value of the property after construction.
While you have 30% equity in the project, your investors only had to raise 15% of the equity, which dramatically increases the return on the project to your investors.
To qualify for PACE, you first have to establish a baseline for the existing building systems in place. Once the baseline is established, the systems to be replaced are evaluated for the estimated savings. CODA has worked with Petros PACE Financing, a lender that specializes in PACE.
Each week I ask my guest, “What is the Biggest Risk Real Estate Investors face?”
BIGGEST RISK:
Well, you know, people ask me about this in terms of real estate, what's going to happen with the economy, as you know, with political elections, what is it going to go up or down a recession or continue in this? You know, We're in one of the longest expansion periods in a long time. And for me, on a national level, I don't see that there's going to be a lot of risk within real estate as a whole.
Based upon the interest rates, I think if the market does begin to slow, you know, the Fed is going to lower the prime. We wait. We may get down to two or even zero interest rates just to keep the economy going. So from that perspective, I think that real estate is still a solid play.
But if I'm looking for us. What we have determined internally is that there's too much political instability here where we are in Illinois. And so what you were saying in terms of like, can we can we avoid it? You know.
Illinois is having a decrease in population of 6 percent over the past 10 years, which is putting a greater burden on the people that are remaining. And we have the pension problems. And, you know, historically, you know, people say, well, you know, they just did a bunch of things to approve legislation which are basically sin taxes.
But my concern is the money is not actually going to pay off those pensions. It's just going to be used to spend in other areas, which is historically have happened in Illinois for the past 20, 30 years. So why is it going to be different?
What we have done is we've stopped buying in Illinois. And for us, that's how we are mitigating or perhaps even transferring because we're looking at states that are more tax progressive and where we're seeing growth.
And so that is what we're trying to do is and that's why we've expanded throughout the Midwest. That's why we have the properties in Ohio. We're looking in Louisville or we're looking in Kentucky. We're looking in North Carolina. We're looking at Michigan.
We're looking at places that are trying to encourage economic development. So either through PACE the Opportunity Zones or the tax benefits for it so that we have greater stability and less risk.
For more go to:
Website: www.codamg.com
Well, you know, people ask me about this in terms of real estate, what's going to happen with the economy, as you know, with political elections, what is it going to go up or down a recession or continue in this? You know, We're in one of the longest expansion periods in a long time. And for me, on a national level, I don't see that there's going to be a lot of risk within real estate as a whole.
Based upon the interest rates, I think if the market does begin to slow, you know, the Fed is going to lower the prime. We wait. We may get down to two or even zero interest rates just to keep the economy going. So from that perspective, I think that real estate is still a solid play.
But if I'm looking for us. What we have determined internally is that there's too much political instability here where we are in Illinois. And so what you were saying in terms of like, can we can we avoid it? You know.
Illinois is having a decrease in population of 6 percent over the past 10 years, which is putting a greater burden on the people that are remaining. And we have the pension problems. And, you know, historically, you know, people say, well, you know, they just did a bunch of things to approve legislation which are basically sin taxes.
But my concern is the money is not actually going to pay off those pensions. It's just going to be used to spend in other areas, which is historically have happened in Illinois for the past 20, 30 years.
So why is it going to be different? So what we have done is we've stopped buying in Illinois. And for us, that's how we are mitigating or perhaps even transferring because we're looking at states that are more tax progressive and where we're seeing growth.
And so that is what we're trying to do is and that's why we've expanded throughout the Midwest. That's why we have the properties in Ohio. We're looking in Louisville or we're looking in Kentucky. We're looking in North Carolina. We're looking at Michigan.
We're looking at places that are trying to encourage economic development. So either through PACE the Opportunity Zones or the tax benefits for it so that we have greater stability and less risk.
Multifamily Syndication 2020 Outlook, Vinney Chopra provides his thoughts for the coming year, 2020 and beyond.
Vinney Chopra purchased his first multifamily property, a 14 unit property for $180,000 in 2008. Today he has grown his portfolio through syndication to 4,100 units worth over $300 million.
It took eleven months for Vinney to raise the money he needed to purchase his first 14 units in 2008. At the time, the financial world was in complete melt down. Banks were not lending, and investors were fearful that losses would continue. Don’t forget, Vinney had never done a multifamily syndication before. But that did not stop him from talking daily with investors and real estate brokers.
Vinney’s concentrated efforts during the 11 months created momentum. Immediately following his 14 unit purchase, he closed on a second property with 109 units. He was constantly talking with investors and brokers. Instead of getting discouraged, he kept in touch and underwrote the properties and made numerous offers. Eventually, sellers and investors were ready to make deals, and because Vinney stayed with it he and his investors benefited.
Scarcity versus abundance. Looking backwards is helpful for where we have been, but not so useful for drawing a clear picture of where we are going. Ask any economist or investor, “what does the future hold for multifamily?” Most will reflect on the incredible period of recent growth and encourage you to sell or accumulate cash and wait for the crash that is overdue.
If you believe in scarcity, and you are expecting a crash, it’s hard to instill confidence in your potential investors that now is a good time to invest. Scarcity yells, WAIT! We should wait until prices cool and deals are more like they were in 2008.
If you believe in abundance like Vinney, you remain active in the market looking to land deals.
From 2008 to 2014, Vinney and his partner did 14 syndications valued at $100 million. Since November 2014, Vinney and his wife have done $230 million, more than double what he did at the beginning of the recovery.
The key to his success is that he stayed in the market. Even when he did not buy a deal in 2018, he stayed in touch with brokers and investors. He studied different markets looking for growth indicators and emerging markets.
To make a sound investment, you need an emerging market. A healthy market for multifamily includes job growth, and inflow of residents that need housing. When demand for housing exceeds supply, you have found a market worth pursuing. The growth of potential renters is made up of three distinct groups, millennials, baby boomers, and immigrants.
Combine this growing demand with the lack of affordable single family homes compared to wages and the demand for rental housing looks strong for the next 20 to 30 years.
Vinney has successfully invested and exited from multiple deals in markets like Texas and Georgia where the demand is super strong. In one case, he invested in 2017 and sold in 2019 for a 50% gain!
There are no guarantees, but if you do your homework, and understand the market dynamics, you can hedge your bet, minimize your downside and take a calculated risk. Housing is a primary need, and apartments are more affordable than single family homes.
The market is dynamic. In 2018, the surge of new investors flooded the market, so much so that Vinney did not buy one property. He believes that the demand was so great, that investors were overpaying for properties. In 2019, he found the over paying buyers were not as numerous, interest rates were lower, which increased cash flow. The combination of these circumstances provided better investment options and he purchased two large newer properties.
Life is full of risk. If you put your money under your pillow, or in the bank, you will make next to nothing. When you leverage into real estate, the bank provides up to 80 percent of the capital needed to buy your property which is in high demand.
Year over year, rents increase, net operating income increases, values in crease, and so too does your equity.
Value add is the best way for a buyer to create equity in his new purchase. An experienced buyer can recognize opportunities the seller is blind to. Value add opportunities range from minimal efforts from raising the rent to market to a heavy lift investing millions into capital improvements.
The key to a successful value add strategy is to recognize the opportunity, and properly underwrite for the cost to implement the changes quickly. You want to hit the ground running as soon as you acquire so that you can benefit from the improved cash flow and increased valuation.
When approaching potential investors, it is important to have a sound strong business plan that assures the investor there is a plan to take care of and return their investment.
Underwriting is key in any market. A good deal is always a good deal.
Multifamily Syndication is full of opportunity in 2020. Investors are looking for greater returns than what they are getting in the stock market. For syndicators who recognize this, and understand how investors can invest their retirement funds, 2020 can be a great opportunity for both syndicators and investors.
The national commercial real estate brokers, CBRE, Berkadia, Marcus Millichap have published their market forecast and in all cases, the next 20 years look bright.
Relationships are key to be successful in multifamily syndication. If you have not yet syndicated a deal, Vinney suggest you work with seasoned syndicator to learn how to do it properly. Once you have some experience, you have multiple options available to you. You can raise money or be the key principal leading your own syndication.
Today is Your Time
Life is full of risk. If you put your money under your pillow, or in the bank, you will make next to nothing. When you leverage into real estate, the bank provides up to 80 percent of the capital needed to buy your property which is in high demand.
Rents increase, net operating income increases, values in crease, and your equity does too.
Each week I ask my guest, “What is the Biggest Risk Real Estate Investors face?”
BIGGEST RISK:
Wow, I'm so glad you shared that because I settled three lawsuits. You know, just in the last quarter of 2019. So it's very fresh in my mind. And actually, one lawsuit was going on for about two and a half years. Nothing major, but it was major in the sense that something happened with one of my contractors on one of my property. And I'm so glad that I have had full coverage, you know. And they said you settle the issue for almost like seven hundred some thousand dollars. And I didn't have to pay a penny.
Another thing, you know, Darrin, my fire happened, you know. Right there in Atlanta property and that was a fire. I had a twenty thousand dollar deductible only, and that settled for two point three million dollars just to let you all know. But it was only possible because of people like Darrin, you know, who were able to sit down with me and make sure that we get the proper insurance.
I got hacked also in 2017 lost $250,000. And guess what? I did not have the Cyber Insurance. And that got me hurt. And, you know, I never looked back. I always look forward and say, what can I do today to make myself better? And that's OK. But now I'm fully taken care of by my I.T., Cyber Security and Insurance and everything. So the key thing is I think insurance plays a very important role.
I had another lawsuit with the, you know, firing somebody and they said it's racial discrimination firing. So these are very important issues. You've got to make sure you've got great attorneys, first of all, who are with you, dealing with you, looking at your contracts and everything. I'm very happy to say I didn't have to pay much again. You know, it could have been millions of dollars of lawsuit. But by hiring the right people and having the right insurance companies and all that, it helps a lot.
Website: www.vinneychopra.com
Book: Apartment Syndication Made Easy
Text: Learn to 474747
Email: jon@vinneychopra.com